Dive into this episode of "On Location with Sean and Marco" as they explore the profound impact of company culture on cybersecurity organizations with guests Denitra Letrice and Dwan Jones. Gain valuable insights on fostering inclusive environments, driving positive change, and unlocking the potential of organizational culture in the dynamic realm of cybersecurity.
Guests:
Denitra Letrice, Director of Cybersecurity Planning & Engagement, MassMutual
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/denitraletrice/
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/denitraletrice
Dwan Jones, Directory of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, ISC2 [@ISC2]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwanjones/
____________________________
Hosts:
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/sean-martin
Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
____________________________
Episode Notes
This episode of the "On Location with Sean and Marco" discusses the crucial topic of company culture and its impact on organizations, particularly in the cybersecurity field. Throughout the episode, Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli engage in thought-provoking conversations with guests Denitra Letrice and Dwan Jones, focusing on the significance of cultivating a positive work culture. The discussion emphasizes the idea that a strong company culture is essential for attracting and retaining top talent, especially in a highly competitive industry like cybersecurity.
Denitra Letrice and Dwan Jones provide valuable insights into the need for organizations to create inclusive and diverse environments where employees feel valued and can thrive. They stress the importance of executive leaders listening to and understanding the experiences of their workforce to drive positive change and improve overall productivity. They also highlight the significance of continuous feedback, engagement surveys, and creating safe spaces for open communication within the workplace, underscoring that building a healthy work environment requires intentional effort, assessments, and a willingness to address systemic issues that may hinder organizational culture.
Furthermore, the episode previews an upcoming session at the Minorities in Cybersecurity (MiC) Annual Conference in Dallas, Texas, with Denitra Letrice and Dwan Jones as panelists for this session. Titled "What Executive Leaders Can Do to Change Their Company's Culture," the session aims to provide actionable strategies for executives to enhance their organizational culture and drive positive outcomes.
Overall, the episode serves as a platform for insightful discussions on the role of leadership in shaping company culture, the importance of diversity and inclusion, and the impact of culture on attracting and retaining talent in the cybersecurity industry. It encourages listeners to consider the value of creating a supportive and empowering work environment for long-term success.
____________________________
Catch all of our event coverage: https://www.itspmagazine.com/technology-cybersecurity-society-humanity-conference-and-event-coverage
Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast with Sean Martin, CISSP playlist:
📺 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllS9aVGdiakVss9u7xgYDKYq
Redefining Society Podcast with Marco Ciappelli playlist: 📺 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllTUoWMGGQHlGVZA575VtGr9
ITSPmagazine YouTube Channel: 📺 https://www.youtube.com/@itspmagazine
Be sure to share and subscribe!
____________________________
Resources
Learn more about Minorities in Cybersecurity: https://www.mincybsec.org/
Annual Conference: https://www.mincybsec.org/annual-conference
____________________________
To see and hear more Redefining Society stories on ITSPmagazine, visit:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-society-podcast
To see and hear more Redefining CyberSecurity content on ITSPmagazine, visit:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-cybersecurity-podcast
Are you interested in sponsoring our event coverage with an ad placement in the podcast?
Learn More 👉 https://itspm.ag/podadplc
What Executive Leaders Can Do to Change Their Company's Culture | An On Location Conference Coverage Conversation with Denitra Letrice and Dwan Jones
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
_________________________________________
Sean Martin: [00:00:00] Marco. Sean. Are you ready for some barbecue?
Well, you go to Dallas, you get barbecue.
Marco Ciappelli: Why don't you brief me before you go on
Sean Martin: with the whole point. I like, I like to stump you with what's going on.
Marco Ciappelli: So you think Dallas, you think barbecue? Is that your thing?
Sean Martin: Yeah, I'm gonna take a quick tangent because I had a really, really amazing experience in Dallas and so I'm gonna share this story where I was at a barbecue place, obviously.
And, uh, I wanted to try a number of different types of barbecue, so I didn't hold back on my selection. Let's just say that. And I went to pay and there was a gentleman standing on the other side of the, of the hall saying, Nope, that's on me. And he did that for about 100 people in line the entire time I was there.
That is, that to me is Dallas. [00:01:00] So Wow. Yeah, I was grateful for that moment and, uh, gave me hope in humanity. Um, that is, I'll say the culture of Dallas, right? Very, very giving group of folks. Um, we're gonna talk about culture today. So the reason I mentioned Dallas is because we're doing an on-location event coverage for the Mike Annual conference.
That's minorities in cybersecurity. They hold a conference where they talk about all kinds of cool things, important topics. Not, not just about minorities, but the, the roles and the activities that minorities have in the world of cybersecurity. So having a good culture is one of them. We're going to be talking to Melanie Ensign and a few others about crisis management.
That's not, uh, that's not anything specific to a particular group. Everybody has to deal with crisis management in the organization. Um, So I'm glad to see that as another topic as part of the event. And today we have, [00:02:00] uh, Dee Latrice and Duann Jones on with us. And they're leading a session on culture.
Thank you so much, both of you, for first off, sitting through my ramblings. Second off, for joining us today and, uh, having this, having this conversation with us.
Denitra Letrice: Certainly. Thank you for having us.
Dwan Jones: Thank you. Yes, absolutely.
Sean Martin: All right. I'm tired of hearing myself talk.
Marco Ciappelli: Sean already took the time allowed to him to talk.
So I'm going to pass the ball to both of you to introduce yourself. And then we will talk about what are you going to do there in Dallas.
Denitra Letrice: Absolutely. So I'll start. My name is Denetra Latrice. Everyone calls me Dee. So please, if you ever meet me at the conference, walk right up and say hello, Dee. Um, I have spent the last 25 years of my career in IT and IT adjacent.
That means theoretical as opposed to hands on [00:03:00] engineering. And over the last five years, I've been concentrated on Human development within I. T. Specifically, cyber security and also, um, focusing on what cultures are needed to help employees thrive.
Dwan Jones: D. And so I am the director of diversity, equity and inclusion at I.
S. C. to really happy to be on with all of you to have this really important discussion. I've been in the world of really communicating and helping organizations with their organizational development. Including inclusion and diversity for around 20 years. And so this is definitely a topic that's very, um, dear to my heart, very passionate about how we can change things to make sure that everyone is included, that folks have a sense of belonging wherever they are, especially in the cyberspace.
So again, really happy to have this conversation with all of you.
Sean Martin: Certainly love it. And, uh, [00:04:00] a proud CIS, CIS SP. Certificate holder. I'll just say that. Awesome. Awesome. My, uh, my fellow guest here from ISC Squared. Um, I want to start with you, Dee, because you said something that probably slipped most people's ears, but it caught mine.
Cultures with an S. And everything that, that I've talked about is how do you establish a culture? Singular. And I'm wondering what, it was, was it purposeful? That it is multiple cultures, and what the heck does that mean?
Denitra Letrice: So if we get down to the consensus, so we have some common language, culture is basically defined as a shared standard of beliefs, values, what we will recognize, what we won't recognize, what we tolerate, what we will not allow.
Um, so with that standard, About five years ago, I was listening to a town hall meeting of an executive in a fortune [00:05:00] 100 company that we're not going to name. Just trust me. I was there and this individual kept saying the word culture over and over again. Our company's culture, our culture, our culture. And I was jotting notes to myself going, I want to ask him to define it.
I bet he's having a different cultural experience. Than his frontline employees are. Right. So I do think there are multiple cultures and as executives and people leaders, we need to make sure that the cultural experience that we are having at our level. Is the same that our employees are having at their level as well,
Sean Martin: because it's not hard enough to build one culture.
We have to, we have to establish many well, I understand what you're saying. It's important.
Denitra Letrice: Break down the barrier. Hopefully we level set so that everyone from John and accounting all the way up through the CEO or having the same shared culture ultimately.
Marco Ciappelli: And it makes [00:06:00] sense. I mean, from a sociological perspective or anthropological cultures is many, right?
Yeah. It's different part of the world, country, city, community. And it makes sense to me that it applies also to the environment where you work. So it's kind of like pretentious to say there is one culture and we're all part of that, right? Absolutely. Uh, yeah, Duann, your point on that.
Dwan Jones: I completely agree.
And you're gonna have multiple cultures within cultures, right? You're gonna have a different culture on your HR team versus what's gonna be on your cyber team. Um, you're going to have one culture for, say, a larger team within the organization, and then there's smaller teams under that that might have a slightly different culture, but akin to what he said, it's all making sure that it aligns.
Right? So does it align with what the vision that your executives or your leaders have [00:07:00] for any particular group? And does that align with the mission, the vision that you're trying to reach? Um, and so that's really where we're, what we're talking about today comes into play. Does it align? Um, and is it getting you where you want to go?
Sean Martin: And where do we want to go? I guess, yeah, I guess I'll just leave it there. Where do we want to go?
Denitra Letrice: So I'll say this. Census Y did a survey back in 2018 for LinkedIn that purported 70 percent of the respondents said they would not work in a company that had a negative or toxic culture. So from a leadership perspective, if we want the brightest and the best, those who are most innovated and prepared to take our business into the next 10, 20, 30 years, we need to make sure that they're attracted to the culture they'll experience when they come over.
If not, they're going to stay where they [00:08:00] are, and we miss out on an opportunity. So that's first attracting and retaining the right talent to be productive.
Dwan Jones: And that leads to a good point and a tidbit specifically on the cyber workforce is that our workforce gap is astronomical right now, we need to grow by 73%.
So we might need to take a minute and let that sink in 73%. We need to grow by across the globe. And we're not going to do that unless we attract the talent, unless we attract more diverse talent. And as Dee said, we're not going to attract them, and then we're not going to keep them unless our cultures are aligned and where they need to be, and it's something that they expect when they walk into the door.
We're finding that more and more, especially younger generations, are asking those questions in interviews, um, because it's, It's two way, right? I want to know about the company. You want to know about me, [00:09:00] but they're asking those questions. Tell me about your culture. Tell me about your values. What do you stand for?
What will you tolerate? What won't you tolerate? Because they want to make sure that where they're spending most of their time, which, you know, where we spend most of our time is at work. They want to make sure that it's in a positive and inclusive environment where they have their own sense of, okay, I can accomplish things that I want to accomplish in my life.
In this organization. And so that that's where we want to go is are we doing that work in the cyber industry? Are we doing that work to make sure? That folks can come in, they stay in, they succeed, and they invite others in. Because that's the only way that we're gonna bridge this gap.
Marco Ciappelli: So it
seems to me that they, with all the conversation I had on the topic, they, bringing people in is relatively easy.
I'm not saying it's easy, [00:10:00] but relatively to retain them. I think that's what the real challenge is. And there is one thing that we know is that cultures Do not change fast. It takes time, and it takes action, and it takes, I don't know, understanding, and I can go on and on and on. So, I love that the, in the title of your session, you have the word change.
So, let's go there. What can be done, Dee, on your opinion? Or what hasn't been done?
Denitra Letrice: So, I think what hasn't been done Is a lot of conscious thought about cultivating a culture. I like to think of it as a water we swim in, in the fishbowl, right? And we all arrive and we just assume whatever is there is kind of what's there.
But have we stopped to sit down and look at what's really in the water? What's making it more difficult for people to be productive? [00:11:00] And, um, we canned this term a couple of years ago and bring your whole self to work. And I think it was. apropos at the moment that it came about, which was COVID and we were all home and the dogs going across the camera and the kids are in the background crying, right?
But the reality of what we should have said to ourselves is bring the best of yourself to work, right? Can that be a shared culture? So what we're asking executives to do is to sit down and do focus groups, analyze the experience that your employees are actually having. As opposed to what you intend for them to have right out exactly measurable goals that can help you attain.
And we're actually right now through my talent offering a product called healthy working environments where we come in and help you do this work boots on the ground with you. And so that we're very, um, deliberate. And we're very [00:12:00] focused and we can measure over time incremental growth, because as you mentioned, Marco, this isn't something that's going to happen from a memo that we send out on Thursday morning.
And now we're in nirvana on Monday. I wish
Dwan Jones: don't we all. I wish that as well. We can walk in on Monday morning and be in a different place. But I think I think the key there too, is also is it changing? Right? So I have found that. You know, employees and staff, if they see things are happening, if they see that you are changing, they also will stay.
Now, if it's the same and it's been the same and there's, we don't see things changing, you talk about that you want to do this, but we don't really see a difference, that's when they start to leave or they quiet quit or those types of situations. So you have to definitely start, like Dee said, you're not going to get where you're going unless you know where you are.
So you [00:13:00] have to start doing that work, having assessments, having focus groups, but then also making sure that you're paying specific attention to where you're getting that feedback from. Are you holding focus groups with the people, the 20 percent of the people who are doing 80 percent of the work? Are, are you really reaching out to those people who you need to know their opinions, you need to hear from the people that you don't hear from on a daily basis, because believe us, they have a lot to say, they have a lot to say that you're going to want to know if you want to do this work correctly.
So it can't be a room. Full of executive leaders. It can't be a room full of, um, folks from the same background. It has to be diverse. It has to be across the organization up and down the organization to make sure that you're getting that good feedback and creating a safe environment for them to speak up so that they don't feel like, okay, I can't.
I can only say, you know, I can't really [00:14:00] say what I really want to say. I can only say what's going to be acceptable and make sure that you're making the environment safe for them to really speak up. Because again, you're not going to make the change that we need to see unless you're having that honesty and transparency.
Denitra Letrice: That is a huge part of it. I like to say it's a culture one where we manage you down to your last mistake. Or we lead you up to your highest potential.
Sean Martin: I'm glad you said that. Go on this journey with me for a moment. So I had, I had a guest on, what, yesterday? Maybe the day before. Where off, uh, off recording we were talking about diving.
And she mentioned that there are some really great places to go diving and others that are not as great anymore. And Basically, what she described is all the places that used to be great have been destroyed by people abusing the environment, right? And so the fish [00:15:00] suffer, the reefs suffer, they're no longer great.
So now we're off to the next place to do it again. So I bring this up because I, I feel that that's the culture. People move around. Some good, some bad. The people that help define it. The people that are the ones that get to live with it. And are there, are there ways people can spot where the culture is coming from?
Follow it around and not, not go diving in the bad place, but go swimming and enjoying the water is where it's lovely.
Dwan Jones: That's a good question because I, I would say, and if we think about this from a personal perspective, in most organizations, you know, where the bad apples are. It's just that folks don't really know how to address that, or folks don't, you know, they're, they're great at their work, but man, our team culture or our team environment is not the best.[00:16:00]
And so you can probably pinpoint where some of those problem areas are, but there are all sorts of tools out there that can tell you that you can do engagement surveys. You can do, like he said, focus groups. These aren't things that we're saying. Okay, just do it 1 time and then you're done. No, you have to continue to do this.
You have to continue to get feedback and that's where you drill down and really find out. Okay. This is this is what's happening. But then also going back to the point around making sure that you have the right people in the room. Um, because they're going to tell you they're in that safe environment, they will tell you here's where we're seeing issues here is, you know, some of the systemic things that are causing our culture, our environment, not to be the best.
And so you can, I think there are several ways that you can maneuver it to pinpoint where it's coming from again. I think it's just that. Okay, we know where it's coming from, but what do we do about it?
Denitra Letrice: Certainly. And I do think there's some tells. [00:17:00] Right. Like if I was in Vegas, I would say you're playing cards.
I see your towel. How are you recognizing success in the organization? Are we celebrating that openly when people leave? And this is something that people often don't think about in organizations when people leave the company. Do we celebrate the time we had together? Or is that tucked away? And you were looking for Beth in HR, and she's just not here anymore.
And no one can speak of Beth like she's Bruno from a Disney movie. Right? Um, the other indicator is, I'd say, bring in an objective resource. As I mentioned, my talent offers this service. Have a sit in your town hall meeting because there are five generations now in the workforce who show reactions very differently.
Um, when the leader is speaking, you can read [00:18:00] on body language the truth. Of the experience of your employees in real time. Is everyone rigid? Like they're afraid to be calling to the principal's office. That's a tell. We probably need to do some digging there. So there are some softer indicators as well.
And then as one said, things like turnover rates. Are you hemorrhaging people out the door? That's probably an indicator you should pay attention to. Right?
Marco Ciappelli: Absolutely. Um, before we give you space to tease, And I think Sean will do that. I thought about, uh, one thing that in branding we say, I think it was a quote from Jeff Bezos, but it said, The brand is not what you think it is, but it's what you Your customer think it is or what they employees talk about when you're not in the room something in between that And I feel like culture is the same thing.
You may think you have the best culture in [00:19:00] the world, but if Stuff happening and it's not what you expect to happen Maybe you need to adjust in tune and I don't know is this one of the thing that you believe the leaders are not Doing right now. They're not listening
enough.
Denitra Letrice: I have a take on that From my own personal experience, no research, just my professional litmus test of life. Um, I think most major, let's say fortune 500 companies that are 100 years or older are still being led with a very, um, military esque hierarchical structure structure where the leader dictates.
We all get on the bus, we go. And your job isn't to point out that the bus has only half tank of gas and the tires flat. Your job is just to go, [00:20:00] right? If we're looking at the next 100 years, if those companies want to survive, they're going to have to start to take some input from those that are on the bus themselves, or I fear they won't be able to sustain.
And and continue. That's my thought. One. What do you
Sean Martin: don't? We don't build autonomous cars without sensors.
Denitra Letrice: Exactly.
Dwan Jones: Yeah, that's the best. And that's that. You know, those traditional operational styles or traditional leadership styles are still prevalent in, you know, any industry. And so you still have that mentality where, you know, leadership is up here, you know, they're in the top of the tower, and those who are doing the work aren't necessarily, they don't necessarily touch each other, or they're not in tune with each other.
And so I think that's where some of that comes from, is that what they have in their mind or what they've set out to, okay, this is what we want it to be [00:21:00] now go do, but they're not, they're, they're not connected to what's actually happening. Um, and and we know in the U. S. Culture, especially work culture, everyone is doing two and three different jobs.
And so it takes commitment and it takes work to. Okay, let's stop and let's listen. Let's not put more work on and let's listen to what's happening to make sure that we can continue to survive as D said into the next 5100 years. And so you have to be cognizant of that. You have to be passionate about it and you have to be intentional that, okay, we, I do need to come out of that tower and I do need to listen and figure out where we are so that we can keep progressing, keep moving forward, keep being a successful organization.
Sean Martin: I like the word purpose and it can be overloaded for many ways to apply here. And one of [00:22:00] the purposes of this conversation is to. One, raise awareness for, for this topic, and two, to raise awareness for the session that you're leading at, uh, the, uh, Mike Annual Conference. It's March 24th through the 28th in Dallas, Texas.
And you, along with, uh, Corey Kuykendall, who couldn't join us for this conversation. Thanks for, thanks for attempting to though anyway, Corey. Hopefully you enjoyed the session in Dallas. Uh, your, your session is titled, uh, what executive leaders can do to change their company's culture with a question mark.
And, um, so give us a, uh, Snippet what you plan to share and discuss that day. Don't give away any secrets, but, uh, give us a sneak peek.
Denitra Letrice: I will say this as the host and moderator of the panel, I'm going to be probing for what [00:23:00] are actionable items that executives can leave this with, um, that they can put into place immediately based on Duann and Corey's experience.
And how can Mike support them as they further that ongoing journey of shifting and cultivating culture?
Dwan Jones: And I'll add to that, that I'm going to be bringing some really specific and, um, intentional key points from our 2023 workforce study around why culture and diversity, equity and inclusion programs will lead to better cyber teams and cyber organizations.
And we'll increase your risk posture. So making sure that do you have these things in place because your culture is actually going to lead. To better teams, more productivity and safer digital environment. So not going to give away secrets, like you said, Sean, [00:24:00] but going to bring some, um, some really great data that we've collected across the globe.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, I'm going to add that D we need to speak about Bruna.
Denitra Letrice: We do. We hear, we talk about Bruno, Marco here. We talk about Bruno.
Marco Ciappelli: I'm all about that. So thank you for the Disney reference.
Sean Martin: Nice one. Nice one. Well, March 24th through 28, you're going to be talking about loads of things, uh, by enabling and supporting and empowering everybody.
In cybersecurity and, uh, a shout out to, uh, to Mary for organizing that event. I know there's a lot of people supporting her in that effort. I recorded a kickoff episode that, uh, folks will need to listen to as well. So if you haven't heard that yet, you'll get an overview of the whole event and, uh, Yeah, I'm thrilled to have the two of you on.
Obviously we're just scratching the [00:25:00] surface. That's the whole point here, right? Just to tease a little bit. Um, but you're both very welcome, uh, for deeper dive whenever you want. So just, uh, just let us know in the meantime, if you're in Dallas. Go there. If you're not in Dallas, head there, uh, enjoy the conference, maybe get some barbecue for me, the cultural moment from that, from that trip was I learned.
And when possible, not a hundred people mind you, but when possible, I do a similar. Similar thing. And, uh, it's, it's led by example. I followed and kept that culture deep in here. So, Marco, anything else?
Marco Ciappelli: That's it. We're good. This was a good conversation. And again, anytime you want to come back, I love to talk about this and help as much as I can to amplify. Awesome.
Denitra Letrice: Topic.
Dwan Jones: Yes. Thank you.
Sean Martin: So I'll put [00:26:00] a link to the conference in the show notes so everybody can find out where it is and when it is and all that good stuff.
And of course, everybody listening, thank you for doing so, please do subscribe, share. And, uh, stay tuned as Sean and Marco go all over the place for our, uh, event coverage on location. Even when we don't go. Even when we don't go. We get to meet amazing people remotely like this. Uh, Duan D, thank you so much.
And, uh, we'll see you soon. Good luck at the event and, uh, keep well everybody.
Denitra Letrice: Thank you.
Be well.
Dwan Jones: Bye.