AI is the 5th Industrial Revolution | How AI is transforming how organizations operate, scale and improve efficiencies to grow the economy keep the nation moving forward, and of the overall significance of the event in shaping the future of technology and society.
Guest: Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov, Under Secretary, for the Science and Technology DHS
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/dimitri-kusnezov-097a9b68/
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Hosts:
Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Notes
In this last episode of the of the Post Event Coverage for CES 2024, Marco Ciappelli and Sean Martin are joined by Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov, the Undersecretary from the Department of Homeland Security responsible for science, technology, and first response.
The podcast begins with an enthusiastic discussion about the importance of CES and how it goes beyond just showcasing gadgets and incredible tech, but representing the present and future of society’s relationship with technology. Marco and Sean express their excitement about the panel Dr. Kusnezov had at CES: AI is the 5th Industrial Revolution | How AI is transforming how organizations operate, scale and improve efficiencies to grow the economy keep the nation moving forward, and of the overall significance of the event in shaping the future of technology and society.
Dr. Kusnezov introduces himself as a theoretical physicist turned government official and shares his admiration for the remarkable mission of the Department of Homeland Security. He highlights the challenges and opportunities that arise from the intersection of technology, innovation, and operational law enforcement.
The conversation then delves into the role of AI as the fifth industrial revolution and its transformative power across various sectors. Dr. Kusnezov emphasizes the interconnectedness of emerging technologies and the need to reimagine traditional fields such as farming and transportation, but also the way we need to think about technology’s role and how our society must be thought in terms of complexity and perpetual change.
Marco and Dr. Kusnezov discuss the cultural shift brought about by technology and how it challenges established norms and sources of information. They ponder the uncertainties of the future, particularly in a world where everything is evolving rapidly, and the social contract needs to be redefined.
Sean brings up the collaboration between the government, tech industry, and academia in shaping the future. Dr. Kusnezov acknowledges the importance of working with private companies and universities to harness innovation collectively. He emphasizes the need for deeper conversations and partnerships to address unique challenges faced by the Department of Homeland Security.
The podcast concludes with Marco expressing gratitude for Dr. Kusnezov's insights and highlighting the importance of staying open to change and redefining societal norms. They encourage listeners to engage in thoughtful discussions and continue questioning the evolution of technology and its impact on society.
Overall, this Post CES Coverage podcast provides a rich and thought-provoking conversation about the intersection of technology, society, and government efforts in shaping the future.
Listen, enjoy, share, and be sure to subscribe to Redefining Society (Marco’s Podcast) and Redefining Cybersecurity (Sean’s Podcast) for many more engaging conversations at the intersection of technology, cybersecurity and society.
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Resources
AI is the 5th Industrial Revolution: https://www.ces.tech/sessions-events/voice/voice01.aspx
Artificial Intelligence | Homeland Security (dhs.gov) : https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology/artificial-intelligence
The Role of Science and Technology in Preparing for Future Change | Homeland Security (dhs.gov) : https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology/news/2023/12/21/role-science-and-technology-preparing-future-change
Learn more about CES 2024: https://www.ces.tech/
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CES 2024 Coverage | AI is the 5th Industrial Revolution: How AI is transforming how organizations operate, scale and improve efficiencies | A Post-Event Coverage of CES 2024 with Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov, Under Secretary, for the Science and Technology DHS
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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[00:00:00]
Marco Ciappelli: Hello, everybody. This is another episode of our coverage of CES 2024. I believe this marks the last one of the many that we had. And I have to say we had some fantastic conversation today, Sean, and, uh, thank you Co founder and the Cybersecurity Podcast [00:01:00] Redefining Cybersecurity on ITSP Magazine is joining me.
It's a great conversation. We've been looking forward to this because we have, Dr. Dmitry Kuznetsov. I hope I didn't butcher the name, which is the Undersecretary Department of Homeland Security. And, uh, he is responsible for many things among science, technology, uh, first response. But the most important thing for us right now is that he had a panel at CES 2024.
So we're doing this, let's say, recap that is not only about the panel, but the overview and what is so there in this place, which I like to say is where you foresee and see the future. So, uh, it's not just gadget, it's society, it's everything that regards our country and the world in general. So, Sean, you ready for this conversation?
Sean Martin: I am. I, I feel like we're about to go on a, perhaps a [00:02:00] psychedelic Beatles song, uh, revolution number nine. I don't know. Maybe we won't get to number nine, but, uh, I think we'll aim for five. How's that?
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And I'm curious about that one. I am up to four. I have the fourth album and the fifth, uh, we'll see what it is about.
I think it's about AI or something But you know what? Enough of me and, and Sean blobbing. Dr. Dimitri, welcome to the show. We're so glad to have you.
Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov | DHS Science & Technology Under Secretary: No, great to be part of the conversation.
Marco Ciappelli: Oh, this is great. So a little introduction about yourself and, uh, and then, uh, what, what is your role? And then we'll dive in into your experience at CES.
Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov | DHS Science & Technology Under Secretary: So I'm a theoretical physicist that found his way into government, and I've been in government in different roles, and most recently now in the Department of Homeland Security, which I understood from the outside, but it is such a [00:03:00] remarkable mission. It's just hard to comprehend, you know, the vastness of, uh, The roles and, and what people rely on for, uh, the department to do is a staggering, uh, and, and kind of when you map that onto the exploding world of technology and innovation, you know, what it means on the positive side and on the negative side, it is just a world in churn and, and just a remarkable moment in time.
To be in such a place, which is a largely an operational law enforcement place where you're trying to do science and where you're trying to push technology. So it's just a fascinating interface and clashes of cultures needs. Timelines and demands
Sean Martin: and, uh, laws and policies and all kinds of other fun stuff.
Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov | DHS Science & Technology Under Secretary: Anything you can think of to make it even more interesting through DHS, [00:04:00] you know, the stuff under the hood here includes, um, you know, Secret Service and Coast Guard and FEMA and TSA and ICE and Customs and Border Protection and encountering weapons of mass destruction. Uh, and, and others that I have missed, uh, in our, our acronym soup, but many of these operational components that span the globe, uh, we interact with more people than any other agency every single day, millions of people, uh, and, and so we're there doing things and it's just, uh, uh, a remarkable place, uh, operationally.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, you know, I was reading a couple of the articles that were published, uh, I think by you and and I was thinking I would love to talk about all of this, but I don't think we have 24 hours to have this conversation, so we'll have to focus on something. But what it really stood [00:05:00] up for me. It's kind of like what you said, the level of complexity and also the fact that is a constant change.
And I think that that's probably the The beautiful thing, but also the biggest challenge to stay on top of all of this.
Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov | DHS Science & Technology Under Secretary: Yeah, I would agree. You know, what's on my mind and what I came in, uh, thinking, uh, was, uh, how to be more prepared. What does preparedness mean in the world today? And, and I kind of view the world in, in a simple way, uh, rightly or wrongly, you know, I, I won't, uh, uh, tell you I'm right, but I will simply kind of define how I view the world and that's what defines, uh, where I.
I spend time, you know, I, I, I look at it in this way. If you believe that, uh, the world of tomorrow. is, is an extension of where we were yesterday. You know, that the world is somehow linear. Um, then the model we have for dealing with borders, for [00:06:00] immigration, for, with, uh, drug interdictions, child exploitation, you know, pick your problem that we have.
Um, When we have multiple hurricanes and fires and floods, you know, the typical approach we have is to throw people at it. You know, we surge, we need manpower in immediate ways because there is a strong demand signal to help our citizens. And so we push people to the problem. And that's really the only instrument we have.
And if you think that, again, the world is linear, Then, you know, we can accommodate the variations that might come with, you know, a fire in Maui, a flood in Southern California, followed by a hurricane in Florida in a narrow amount of time by just pushing people. And then we relax back to a status quo, which we're comfortable with.
Our risk models are reasonable. Um, in, in this model, you know, we surge at airports during the holidays, but cargo and traffic [00:07:00] kind of, uh, abate afterwards. And, and so we don't have to think differently than expecting, um, vendors to improve their products, a few percent a year, better throughput, you know, that'll kind of meet the need of, of the, the changes we see.
But, if you think the world is non linear, that tomorrow is perhaps not captured by what we experienced yesterday, then, then I would say we have to step back and reflect and say how, how can we be more prepared. For things that could happen that we can't anticipate because it's not a linear world. And I kind of bookend my thinking by a couple of things, which is what I captured or try to capture in some of those documents you referred to.
Um, you know, on one end, we're pretty used to, uh, in the last few years of reading about rare events in weather. You know, that that's never happened before. That's a 500 year event or a once in a [00:08:00] lifetime event. The cadence. Of rare things has become very frequent that we're kind of getting used to the fact that rare things, previously rare things, are today's new normal.
And we have kind of an acceptance of some of this change. So, you know, on one hand, you have these variations happening in extreme weather. Uh, that I think about because we have duties certainly to, uh, first responders around the country, but we also work with FEMA and other places, and we think about critical infrastructure.
Uh, the other side, um, you know, on the slower side, you just have to go up to Alaska that's heating up four times, um, uh, faster than down here, and, and you see things already that are impacting, uh, lifestyle, the quality of life, how people, uh, deal with change, uh, as, as the ice. It has receded. It used to be all the way up to the northern slope, but now you go out there and you look at, you know, from Point Barrow, you don't see any ice in the horizon.[00:09:00]
As the seaways open up and the routes from Asia to Europe are, are, uh, you know, opened, then commerce is going to start passing through the north, and that will change, um, you know, some of our responsibilities in Coast Guard, in, in, uh, In search and rescue and domain awareness, uh, and our footprint and our needs will be dramatically different.
And so, you know, in the longterm, the bookend of a nonlinear world is on one side, the changing environment around us. On the other side, it's just the remarkable pace of emerging technologies that is unprecedented for which we have no context in our lives, but it's It's embedding the world around us and we're consuming it in remarkable ways and it's everywhere.
It's not just AI. It's autonomous systems, not just cars and drones, but You know, it's CES, it's excavators, and mining equipment, and [00:10:00] anything you can think about is, is, uh, automated. Uh, it's, it's nanomaterials, it's additive manufacturing, it's quantum technologies, it's, uh, bioengineering, uh, and gene editing.
It is dozens of these things. exploding as engineering platforms that, you know, like Lego blocks, you can start, you know, building these things together because they're engineering platforms. And so you can grab a bit of, of, of machine learning and some big data, and you can get some gene editing and some nanomaterial manufacturing, and you can blend all of this stuff together and make a new thing.
That never existed before. And there is a, an aspect of, of innovation and creativity that is going to surprise us. Uh, because we're at a point where, you know, really remarkable invention is possible and, and we're only rate limited by ourselves. And as I put on my Homeland Security hat on, I think, well, [00:11:00] what does this mean for us?
One, are there any force multipliers we should be dealing with to address a changing world, to be more responsive and prepared for change? And second, what is the downside of this that we're going to have to be prepared for, because we'll be surprised by things we've never seen before and probably.
Cannot anticipate today. And so anyway, that's kind of the swirl in my head that, uh, you know, I think about in, in this role here. And so, uh, again, it's, it's just a remarkable environment.
Sean Martin: That's a fantastically, uh, beautiful. I see there, I can picture everything that you you've described and the interactions and then you say the word surprise.
And, um, I think that there's a couple of points in there. So if we look at your panel first, uh, that you had at CES called AI is the fifth. Industrial Revolution. [00:12:00] And the, uh, the short description for that is learn how AI is transforming, how orbs operate, scale, improve efficiencies to grow the economy and the nation, get the nation moving forward.
And in there, there's a few words, there's scale, uh, improve efficiency, which are, in my opinion, kind of old school industrial revolution, right? How, how can we make humans? And get and make things happen that either remove the human where it slows it down or make the humans more, more capable. And I can see that in terms of AI, but, but then you say this word surprise where I think we have an across all of CES, I think we see a lot of technologies that will allow us to do things.
That weren't possible, not just not possible for humans, but weren't possible. Yeah. Um, so any, any thoughts on that from the things you saw, the conversations you had [00:13:00] during?
Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov | DHS Science & Technology Under Secretary: Well, you know, I, I only spent a couple of days there. I only had one day and part of a day to walk the floor, um, which, uh, I think was several miles of walking.
I know a person I was with was tracking his steps. And so, uh, yeah, he had in a, you know, 15, 000 or 20, 000 steps just for a small bit of time. Um, you know, there were almost 5, 000 companies there. And, and I was asked, uh, a number of times, what is it that, uh, struck you the most, uh, you know, what did you see that was interesting and, you know, as I reflected on it, it wasn't any given thing.
It was, it was the whole essence of what is there is that. Everyone, every technology, every domain, um, every sector of the economy was reflected there. Everything is being reimagined, you know, from the ground up, I think [00:14:00] you, you have this sense of people are starting to be unleashed in terms of how they view very traditional things from shoes and toilets, uh, which are now smart hubs for your, your bathroom to, um, you know, whatever you point at, uh, was someone reimagining, Uh, something which was seemingly mundane, perhaps you thought was a dead end thing as just that's just glasses.
Those are just toothbrushes or shoes. It's not anymore. You know, the, the fields are changing. They're all becoming data companies. They're all instrumented with sensors. They're all thinking. They're all interconnected with other things, doing things machine to machine that you're not aware of. But enable the functionality you want, you know, it's fun to see the electrical car that has, uh, you know, retractable quadcopter blade so it can take off and land and then drive around and, uh, and it looks like a [00:15:00] regular car when it's retracted.
Um, you know, those things are, are interesting. The, uh, I like the, uh, autonomous, uh, excavating equipment and, uh, and, and the stuff that, uh, you know, uh, farming, uh, is, is moving towards, you know, even John Deere is not, uh, it's not a tractor company anymore. It is a data company. You know, they, they map the farms, they map the soil, they map down a number of inches in terms of soil quality.
They, uh, keep the record of where, uh, you know, uh, things grow well on your land versus where it doesn't grow well. So they automatically plant more seeds where you'll get more yield and less seeds in other places. Precision, precision spraying just on the weeds saving, you know, they had like 60 or 80 percent in terms of pesticide use, uh, higher yields.
And so it is not just It's not just someone building tractors anymore, it is a data company, it is tied to other [00:16:00] streams of data, um, it's, it's automated, everything is kind of, uh, reinvented in this technology world and gives you pause, you know, it, it, it certainly in government where we are slower to change or turn on a dime, you know, it's worth reflection on, on what re imagining yourself could mean in the domains here that matter to the country, you know, are there things that, you know.
Thanks. We should also be trying to rethink, uh, holistically. Um, and so that's what I got from there. It's like, wow, you know, this is different than last year. Far more, uh, imaginative and I think far more widespread. In terms of everything you saw there. So every little thing was kind of neat, but it was the sense that everything is exploding right now and where it's going to go in the next couple of years.
I have no idea from prosthetics to to pick your thing. It was there and I'm sure you saw the same [00:17:00] thing. It was fascinating.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I love how you presented because it's make you think about the thing that you know. You thought it was done. Now it's it can be something else. It's almost opening another dimension of what that product can do.
And from the conversation that we had, one of my thoughts from a philosophical perspective, maybe was the fact that we are a little bit more focused on finally, maybe not just being attracted to what is new, but what can serve us As society and as humans. So improving our humanity. Now I'm being very idealistic now, but I'm hoping it's not just driven by the market, but it's driven by other mean.
And the way you present it is like, yeah, we can kind of in a hacker mentality, look at something and it could be something else that is And [00:18:00] we talked to the director of thematic, choices for, CS, Brian Kaminski, and I picked his brain on how he'd pick certain theme and, and he said, you know, there is a lot of research going on, a lot of things, uh, feedback from the year before, from where the industry is going.
So I'm going to turn that question to you. How did you decide it amongst all the things that you could talk about focusing on this 5th Industrial Revolution, which I'm guessing is the AI? And, and what, why you wanted to focus on that?
Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov | DHS Science & Technology Under Secretary: Among the things that are, uh, happening, um, this is, uh, the, the AI part is more of the glue.
That brings together all of the other emerging technologies. So more so than, than others, I think it, it plays a special role in helping interface between different things. [00:19:00] Um, and so.
And I think it's also moving faster than most of the other technologies. But that said, the others are also progressing remarkably fast. So, I like AI because, you know, at the beginning of last year, at last CES, Large language models were not, uh, you know, some of us were following it and were aware, but it didn't have the, the, the popular culture capture, uh, that it has today.
It exploded, uh, you know, in the spring of last year with kind of the release, the public release of CHAT GPT as everyone started to, to play with it. And then large language models and, and subsequently generative AI became. The thing, but I would say at the end of, of last year, even in December, uh, it, it started to evolve away again, more visibly with a large representational models that, [00:20:00] you know, it's not just language, uh, things are even smarter when you ingest images and video and other things into it, you find that it learns better and does respond better to, and can create it.
It, in more interesting ways, and already it's kind of evolved in six to eight months. And, and so, uh, we saw some of that picked up at CES, but I think, uh, by the time we get to the next one in a little less than a year, I suspect there'll be a couple of more things, you know, there that also are, you know, drawing excitement and energy, uh, but we don't know exactly what those are yet.
It's happening at such a pace that, uh, you know, it's the next surprise is around the corner and and what it means. You know, has something. I don't know. We'll, we'll figure that out. So that's why, you know, going back to your question, it's probably a long winded answer, which is perhaps somehow typical. Um, [00:21:00] you know, it's the A. I. Side of it, uh, is. Is remarkable in that the corporate appetite for hiring PhDs, uh, to do this work is, uh, insatiable at the moment.
And they are thousands of these folks working tirelessly around the clock, around the world, trying to get that edge for their business model. And, and this feverish pace. is, is, is just, uh, uh, you know, it's crazy and it's global, um, and, and that's why there is, uh, you know, it's worth paying attention to that to see where that is going, because that's going to pull along a lot of these other things as we see the, you know, development of autonomous systems, you know, where drones are going and, and, and other mobility and, you know, pick your area.
Um, these are going to be enabled by, uh, You know, what's happening here in this space. So that's why the AI [00:22:00] side I found most interesting.
Sean Martin: And if I may, the, the point you made about AI touching everything, and then you just spoke to the, the, the level of. Expertise, certainly at the large language model and the API and the development model, not so much maybe at the, at the UI presented through CHAT GPT.
But when you start to get under the hood and, and building apps and systems and services and connections between multiple things, this is some pretty, pretty intense stuff. So I'm wondering how. You and your team, teams, uh, obviously being, being part of CES is an important, important aspect of this, but how, how do you kind of keep things top of mind and relevant and how do you make the decisions on where to invest the time bringing scientists in, bringing [00:23:00] researchers in, bringing developers in?
to kind of get a sense of what the risks are with the technology, the things that touches the impact it can have on security and national security and society as a, as a whole.
Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov | DHS Science & Technology Under Secretary: Yeah. There are different sides of that. And that, that's a great question. Uh, You know, on one side, we have a responsibility to all of our operations here at DHS for S& T to, with today's needs.
Um, and so, uh, there are a lot of places there where injection of technologies and where we invest our money is strongly aligned. With the demand signal we get from all of the operational sides of DHS, um, you know, and, and so that is more of, um, the role of AI in, in the way you framed it, uh, earlier in kind of [00:24:00] amplifying, uh, how we do business today, making things more efficient, making things faster, um, same kind of thinking.
Just, uh, further enabled and perhaps, uh, force multiplied in some way, uh, by relieving the burden on people in doing what they're already doing, uh, through more conventional means. The second role that, uh, we have, uh, that, uh, you know, I think about a lot is what is beyond the horizon. What is coming? Um, what is it that may be, Uh, inconsistent with the way we approach problems today.
Um, what, what are the things, uh, where our solutions that we, uh, employ today are not scalable to a future that could be dissimilar from today? And, and that's a different problem that we have a little more latitude to be creative, uh, and try and understand [00:25:00] what can you make from all of the different innovation pathways, the pockets of, of, uh, you know, smart people doing things just about everywhere.
What can you piece together to do that, uh, could change the way you understand risk to, to change the way we operate? In a way that would make us more versatile. To, uh, things we might have to worry about in the future. And so those two, um, one is longer term. The other is we need to meet the needs today and tomorrow.
And, uh, those two don't always intersect immediately. Uh, but, uh, at some point, if we're thinking straight about the future, then, then they should.
Marco Ciappelli: And I'm going to get in on a little bit more, uh, philosophical on this because I, there is a reason why One of my shows is called Redefining Society and Sean's show is called Redefining Cybersecurity.
We went with the [00:26:00] word redefining because you need to shift the paradigm. You need to shift the culture and this is, I'm following pretty much what you're saying. And, um, I can see a little bit of resistance all usually towards what is new and scary and unknown. And that's what we're kind of seeing for AI.
Right now. So the role of education and the role of government, different part of the government and the role of us as media that we can have into Presenting this and facilitate maybe this cultural shift where people maybe realize that when big changes come, digital revolution, industrial revolution, it's not that the job disappear, the job kind of reshuffle there is new opportunities.
So how can we, as a society, have some kind of a new social contract and, and understand that [00:27:00] there's not a final point where we can stop and say, Hey, we have arrived. We are in motion, and I would love your, your opinion on this.
Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov | DHS Science & Technology Under Secretary: I don't know. You know? Okay. That's done. 'cause it's a, you know, I, I don't know because, uh, I, I, I say it in the following sense.
I, I don't understand the world of my grandkids, you know, I don't have a context for their worldview. Um, they're growing up in a world right now where, you know, all this technology started a day one, um, the ability to edit your personal history by erasing people in, in images you don't like putting yourself somewhere else to, to do revisionist history.
Of your own life's trajectory is, is baked in to how we sell products to the kids today. And, and so their world is not rooted in, in trusted sources or authorities of [00:28:00] facts. It is rooted somewhere else. And the context for that world and what social contract means is worth some reflection because uh, for, for the older people here, like myself, you know, who understood, uh, who had a sense of, you know, as a scientist, I always go back to journals and originally, you know, peer reviewed literature as this is a place where I can reference fact, uh, uh, at least at this moment in time, there isn't such a place anymore for a lot of stuff.
Um, and, and, and stuff is freely created. It's done generatively more so in the future, but it is accepted that that's okay. In the world that the kids live in. So I, I see the contrast of a world where I, I, I remembered reputable journalists and sources and listen to these guys because they've done their research and they have a track record to now, you know, people listen to whatever they want, if it reinforces things that they like [00:29:00] to hear.
Um, and. And if you don't live with that contrast, uh, you don't appreciate that something has changed. When that's all you've ever seen, you know, I, I don't understand exactly what that's going to mean for the world to come. And, and how you, uh, you know, as we age out and disappear. You know, what that new world is going to be like and, and what the context of your question is really going to mean at that time.
Um, I, I think it's a fascinating question. It's just hard to imagine, uh, what we have to prepare for, which goes back to this idea of the world is changing in a way that, you know, we have to be prepared. We have to be able to pivot. We can't be locked into ways of doing things. We have to be more reflexive to whatever might be happening around us, especially these days.
And, you know, it's reflected in so many ways, including, uh, you know, what you were talking about. [00:30:00] So
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And I ask you this question because Your answer is my answer. I don't know. But I think we need to stay open, which is the core of your message. Stay open to change, stay open to redefining even privacy, even other things in our, in our society.
Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov | DHS Science & Technology Under Secretary: And, you know, being ready for a future that's different today is that you're usually wrong. And you have to accept the fact that, okay, I placed my bets here, but I'm wrong because now it's this, you know, it has to be built in that this is not a failure mode. This is just the nature of, of how the world is going to change.
You just have to be able to change your direction because the direction you're on is no longer the right one. And, you know, sometimes people are worried that, well, You know, this is what you said you were going to do and you're not doing it. So you're wrong. You know, we have to kind of break that model so we can, uh, be a little more dynamic in our response to a [00:31:00] rapidly changing world.
Sean Martin: And I, I want to, as we begin to wrap here, kind of bring it to the future of what you're working on and with your group, uh, I know in the cyber security world, the like Black Hat and DEF CON, there's a whole spot the Fed where the government isn't necessarily openly welcome in the early times of those conferences, but much more now where we've seen a lot of work through through CISA early days of CISA, bringing Mm hmm.
Government entities in with the, the hacking community. There's probably not that stigma in general tech, but maybe not a, a first thought let's have government involved here. Um, so how, how do you see your departments? Joining forces with the tech and the researchers and [00:32:00] academia, let's say as well, uh, to help define a future.
So how do you, how do you see that working and what, what changes are, might be coming with your department to, uh, to make some of that happen?
Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov | DHS Science & Technology Under Secretary: Yeah, we have to be, uh, uh, far more flexible with how we work with, uh, the private sector, how we engage universities, uh, because, um, You know, the, the knowledge space out there is, is vast and it's, it's hard to comprehend all the things you don't know.
Uh, and there are a lot of them and the only way you can try and figure out and find your way is to spend a lot of time talking with people. Um, DHS, uh, is, is a boutique operation in terms of, So you know, we have a number of, uh, technology needs, you know, we have special things that we need for airports and, and ports of entry and screening cargo, um, and, you know, communications on Coastguard Cutters.
And, you know, there, uh, [00:33:00] the product line that we need isn't measured in the millions or billions of units of any given. technology. And so we have to partner with, with companies, uh, in, in more creative ways because, um, our needs alone won't sustain the, the ecosystems. Um, and so, you know, that's something on my mind.
How do we partner? How do we find companies that aren't just sitting on their hands waiting for the right, uh, RFP to come out, uh, for us to say, please, can you solve this problem? Um, because I think we'll miss the mark in that the Kinds of things we worry about are not just neatly aligned with, uh, uh, product offerings that will be resonant with where commercial markets are pulling things these days.
And, and so we have to find ways to have deeper conversations with companies who are willing. to work with us to try and understand, you know, what is your [00:34:00] five year roadmap? Can we, uh, you know, perhaps do NRE with you? And can we bring some IP from this kind of company or these technologies in? And can we try and, and blend and, and create something here that otherwise won't get created?
And so I think finding like minded companies. Uh, who, who want to work with us and we have a, you know, small track record of, of starting to do things like that is going to be an important part of it. It's, I, I'm not aware of any single company that offers, you know, the solutions we need for everything. Or, or the job would be easy and we wouldn't have any crises anywhere and life would be swell.
And, and so it's, it's incumbent on us to lead conversations and that's why going to places like CES that has just thousands and thousands of companies is, is important. We had a big team out there from DHS, from S& T. Uh, you know, walking, we had our tech scouting people out there, [00:35:00] uh, talking with everybody.
We, we, we lean into these things to try and find new pathways to innovate, uh, in a time when it's especially vital. So yeah, it's on us to rethink how we do this, um, and, you know, being more responsive and prepared includes how we partner and how we understand, uh, where technologies are going and how we find our bearings and validate that.
We're on the right path or, or not pointed in the right way.
Marco Ciappelli: Wonderful. I think that's a perfect way to end this conversation. I want to be considerate of your time and all the time that you took. Really inspiring. One of our mantras is we hope we make people think. We don't have necessarily answers for everything.
Thinking is good. Yeah, thinking is good. So I want to invite everybody to think. Post some comments if you have and share this conversation if you enjoyed it. And again, thank you [00:36:00] so much, uh, Dr. Kuznetsov for stopping by. I hope we get to talk again. Thanks, Sean. Thank you very much. Stay tuned, everybody. And subscribe and, uh, for our next event.
Thank you,
Dr. Dimitri Kusnezov | DHS Science & Technology Under Secretary: everybody. All right. Take care.