Host Sean Martin is joined by experts Dr. Stacy Thayer and Dr. Darius Hines-Cross to discuss the potential uses of virtual and augmented reality in improving cybersecurity operations.
Guests:
Dr. Stacy Thayer, Senior Manager, Marketing Research and Engagement at Netography [@netography] and Adjunct Professor of CyberPsychology at Norfolk State University [@Norfolkstate]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/stacythayer/
Dr. Darius Hines-Cross, Security Assigned Expert at Splunk [@splunk]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/dariushinescross/
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Host: Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/sean-martin
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This Episode’s Sponsors
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Episode Notes
In this episode of Redefining Cybersecurity on ITSPmagazine Podcast Network, host Sean Martin is joined by Dr. Stacy Thayer and Dr. Darius Hines-Cross to explore how virtual and augmented reality can be used in cybersecurity to improve business operations. Throughout the conversation, the group discusses the possibilities and ethical implications of using these technologies. They speculate on how virtual and augmented reality can be used to improve cybersecurity operations, such as training and simulations.
The experts explore the wide range of implications and opportunities that virtual and augmented reality offer in various industries, including the healthcare industry to help draw some analogies to other business operations. In another example, virtual reality can allow individuals to experience alternate worlds and places that may not be physically accessible. However, the group also discusses the potential dangers of crafted reality, where the reality is still controlled by someone else. They also discuss how virtual classrooms could be used to improve student participation in courses.
During the episode, the group also touches on the challenges of implementing such technology and the importance of doing research and risk analysis before investing. Small and medium-sized businesses are also discussed, with emphasis on the potential risks associated with implementing technology without proper security concerns. The podcast ends by stressing the opportunities and challenges of using virtual and augmented reality in various industries, including cybersecurity, and how technology can be used ethically to improve society.
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording as errors may exist. At this time we provide it “as it is” and we hope it can be useful for our audience.
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And hello everybody, you're very welcome to a new Redefining Cybersecurity podcast here on ITSP Magazine Podcast Network. And in this show, Redefining Cybersecurity, I try to explore the idea or the concept of making security work for the business. So operationalizing technology in the teams and the processes in a way that doesn't just protect the business from risk but actually helps them grow revenue and money basically and exposure in the market, market share if you will. So two angles there and no lack of technologies available to help companies with this. And I think with that, it makes it very complicated to get a handle on what policies are needed, what controls are required, how do you know that those things if you actually implement them are working properly, and who do you tell and do they care and why should they care and why do they give you money to do all that stuff. So enough about the show and what I'm trying to accomplish. I think today's topic is one, for me when we started kind of exploring the idea of having this conversation, it seemed kind of far-fetched. But a lot has happened even in just the last few months with AI, and generate AI and large language and natural language models that the role of virtual reality, augmented reality doesn't seem to be so far-fetched anymore. So that's going to be the topic today and talking about adding technologies to the mix that hopefully help but could perhaps complicate things even more. That's kind of the conversation today. I'm thrilled. It may sound like I like to talk to myself with this nice long intro, but I don't. And that's why I have two amazing guests on with me today, Stacy and Darius. Thanks for joining. Hi, happy to be here. Yes, thanks for having us. And I'm glad we pulled this together. And for those who don't know you yet, a few words about who you are and what you're up to, and maybe a tidbit on why you're interested in the topic of VR and cyber. So Stacy, we'll start with you. Sure, sure. Hi, my name is Dr. Stacy Thayer. And I've been involved in the security industry for, well, as long as I can remember, starting with 2600s and then also in not when it wasn't VR, but video games. So definitely playing video games in some form, even on my dad's Apple IIe. So as both of those industries have evolved, I've been paying attention to both of them. And I'm currently an adjunct professor at Norfolk State University, where I teach virtuality there. And then also I do work in the cybersecurity industry. Last time I had the pleasure of speaking with you was when I was speaking at Black Hat about burnout. So I dabble in a lot of different industries within the security industry. But this one in terms of virtual reality and augmented reality has been a new and upcoming interest that I think has a lot to learn from, a lot to discuss. I'm really excited to be here. I'm so excited to pick your brain. And you brought somebody with you to help us round out the conversation. Yes. Who's with you? So I have the honor of bringing with me Dr. Darius Hinds Cross. He's been a student in a couple of my classes at NSU and is absolutely outstanding. I was a student and I always look forward to reading his papers. And he has a background in security, as Jial let him discuss. And when he was in my virtuality class and then this topic came up and we talked about, Shawn and I talked about, okay, he's somebody who's also at the intersection of security and virtuality and maybe had taken one of my classes. There was really, Darius's name came right to mind. So I'm really excited to be able to have this opportunity with him. He's a very memorable student. Great ideas and thoughts. Love it. Who's Darius? Darius, a few words if you wouldn't mind. Yes, definitely. Hello. I'm Dr. Darius Hinds Cross. I am a cyber psychology student right now going to North Fork State University. I am a cybersecurity professional. So right now I'm a security assigned expert in charge of providing strategy and technical guidance to many of my clients, both in the finance space, DOD, Intel, et cetera. I am working towards a cyber psychology degree because this program is so interesting, this topic. So discussing how humans interact with virtual environments, how virtual reality intersects with cybersecurity issues and operations, offensive and defensive operations. So very excited to be here and I look forward to the topics that we're going to discuss. I love it. And I mean, I have a list of like 100 questions. Marco would freak out if he knew I had that many questions. But I mean, the scope of this can be super broad, right? So I don't know how best to start. Maybe a good place might be, because I think for the general person thinking about virtual reality and augmented reality, they think metaverse-like stuff. And to your point early on, Stacey, the gaming aspect of things, which could cross over certainly into business, gamifying activities and things like that. But are there, maybe to start, are there other industries where VR is playing a role in driving better operations for improving efficiencies, less human error, for better results from a human perspective, not burning them out, to your point about your black hat talk. So maybe from each of you, an example of where it's being used in business today that we might then pull on those strings to make the connection to where cyber can benefit as well. Sure. Well, one of the things that we covered during class, I'm not going to quiz anybody, I promise. But there's actually quite a bit of use for it. The ones that I find the most interesting actually both have to do with healthcare. So training medical professionals so that they're able to do pretty significant operations, but they do it virtually in the educational environment. So both healthcare, education, for all ages it has huge implications, which to me that's one of the areas where it needs the most focus also on security and protecting students of course. But there's also marketing departments and businesses are really trying to catch the wave of VR by creating virtual spaces that then they can use to market. I had the advantage of going to HubSpot conference last September and they had an amazing conversation about virtual reality and marketing. And it was amazing to hear the business applications and things in terms of how do you get users to engage in a world. I mean, and this is everything from, I think it was a fast food restaurant chain and gamifying it, but then how are they having this with businesses. But then you've got then the medical side and the intervental side of what you can do, let's say you have somebody with PTSD and you can work them through some of their greatest fears using virtual reality, using VR and having them experience it. So if you're somebody who's afraid of spiders, you put on that headset and now you see a spider crawling up your arm, right. I'm going to freak out still. I have not gone through that exposure therapy. But for somebody who's in the military, there's incredible uses for VR in the military and in the government that are also being used and developed. So really right now there's a lot of examples that we look to and say, okay, here's meta and we're putting on the headsets and Oculus and whatever. But when you really step back and look at you are creating an alternative world where the sky is the limit for a lot of people. And what does that mean? I mean, this is then you're opening it up to almost this wild, wild west of this virtual world. I'll stop there and hand it over to Darius. Sure, so again, as Stacy had mentioned, in one of our classes, virtuality, we were discussing healthcare, huge topic, being able to get that exposure therapy to individuals that might not have access to go to a local therapist or might not have access to a system that they can bring to them for like spiders, just an example, or fear of heights, like going out to a building, going up to the top of it with your therapist. It's a lot safer now in a virtual environment. It's controlled. The scenarios can be created ahead of time. They can be tested. And it provides a safer environment for the military to be able to work through the course of their PTSD, et cetera. Another field, and this is kind of a mix between virtual reality as we also discussed augmented reality as well. So getting to kind of that mixed space, mixed AR space, where you have companies, I know one company, Splunk, who I work for, they have added augmented reality to their platform. So now when a data owner or data admin goes into their server center, they can see the metrics of their servers through augmented reality versus having to log into each system, having to see what the temperature is of this rack versus a different rack. They can see all of those specs either through skated means or just regular server hardware. And that increases efficiency, as you were talking about. It requires less time now to, less admins as well, because you can now just basically cruise through your server city and get all the specs you need without needing to find those logs, go into each system. You see there's a problem. It pops up right away with an error. You can walk into your server room, and if something is hot, then it just shows red versus you trying to figure out, okay, which server is it? Where are we? So there's a lot of interesting use cases for both virtual reality within the business world, medical field, and of course, education, because being able to do research online has changed the whole landscape of education. Being able to complete a master's, being able to complete a doctorate online and still get that same value add as if you were in person, being able to attend virtual classes that give you hands-on keyboards still, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, where you can actually mess with devices through virtual means without having to go to a lab with expensive equipment during very specific times, because labs are always booked. And I definitely want to get into kind of what's possible in terms of what you see and how you might move around, those kinds of things. But I want to stay, it would be naturally easy for me to get into the how, but I want to talk about the what first for another moment in terms of what's the, what are the possibilities or maybe the objectives of virtual and augmented reality in the sense of providing an environment where somebody can see something, maybe witness something, we talked about in the PTSD and exposure therapies, areas experiencing and changing the way you experience something perhaps. So those are a few things that I pulled from the conversation thus far. But what's possible with AR and VR that we should really consider as potential benefits as we explore the world of cyber with this technology there? Well, I think the first example that always comes to mind is, I can share a personal story. So my parents who are in their 80s, they love Paris. They can't really go to Paris anymore. I have a VR headset, pop that puppy on and boom, they're in Paris. And what's interesting, and this could be a whole other topic, when you start picking apart what happens to the brain when you experience that immersion and that presence and how as we evolve into better graphics and reality and how much we can feel that we are in a place and when you start thinking about people that either aren't able to travel, whether or not, if you start, like now we offer laptops to kids in schools. Well, let's say now we're, a couple of years down the line, we're offering VR headsets. What if you're actually able to then imagine like here's something that was in the past here's something that could be in the future. I mean, it opens up worlds and I think that that begins to be a benefit where we begin to experience. Now, it's crafted reality. So this is something that we have to be careful of because we can say, oh, wouldn't it be interesting to experience what it's like to live in Nepal? And here it is, I put on my headset, I go to my house and I get on the bike and ride my bike around with, but it's still crafted into something that came from somebody that you're going to see. I mean, think about like Google Maps, right? Have you ever looked at Google Maps and you're like, what's on that street? So I know when I'm going to be there. Oh, I'm going to be there.
look there's a subway okay and there's this and you look to see exactly what the building looks like well that's just on a on a web on a website now imagine if we could do that and there it is but we're we're really in there and for anybody who's ever read or or seen like ready player one I mean where it's an entire reality but we're living we're just in the chairs how far could that really go could that happen uh and when I when I teach I always wish um a couple times not every day but a lot of times where I could put on a a headset and there's the there are the students it's not convenient to go to a class I've taught in person I love I love interacting with the students but sometimes when it's just through uh when it's not when it's asynchronous you do lose a lot of that person-to-person connection whereas could we actually have a virtual class environment that doesn't make us nauseous within 30 minutes and we can actually have the experience so to me it could go anywhere from just helping somebody who is maybe has physical challenges or can't leave their house see parts of the world they might never see to could it grow into something that's an entire alternate reality that becomes literally in this case a second life and Darius I want your thoughts on this as well um now I'm gonna frame it a little bit here in the sense that I have the pleasure of speaking to security leaders all over the world and I get to hear some interesting stories and one one that I heard was about tons of business continuity planning and disaster recovery planning and processes put in place and even even some some I don't know tests or trial runs of those plans but taken and when reality struck it was one of the one simple thing that that caught them that I'm trying to remember exactly what it was but basically one one particular part of the network lost connection right and that connection wasn't planned for in the plan and so I'm wondering if there's a way now that this this kind of says that we we have our environment threat or our IT environment mapped out somehow and maybe you want to touch on this as well what that might look like so that I can see if this happens than this and if this happens than that and if I take care of this that it fixes these but not those describe a little bit of that world if you can for me and and then maybe also go back and touch on the kind of the experience thing where perhaps the experience is the only way I'm guessing to really to really have that knowledge sure so I'm sure we've all seen the movies out there where you see them with all the fancy dashboards and you get the dotted lines it's like oh that's gone red there and then it redirects and it's green on another flow I mean we wish that could be reality everywhere but from a virtual reality standpoint it's a great idea it's something that could exist again you've mapped out your network you know what it looks like so to plan for this you can build out kind of a dev environment in a way is what it would seem like a dev test environment like you would have for production in virtual reality where you can actively look at okay I can see my system through the goggles even though the system is in real life so taking that and saying okay now what happens if this cable goes down and then each sysadmin network admin can be in the scenario and they can see oh well this is working correctly but this one isn't all right so how do we trace that back and so being able to virtualize that the ability to have a network diagram virtual in itself is a huge value because now I can look and see where those connections are in a three-dimensional shape not just 2D so okay so I see that there's a connection going from the server to this server cool however okay so now I see pull it in and I see pull it into a third dimensional realm this connection splits off technically into two lanes and this lane dropped and okay so now I need to know based off of my network based off my network provider my ISP okay if you go down maybe I need a backup ISP maybe I need another way to circumvent my normal flow because I didn't account for that business continuity it's testing it that's the one thing that never really happened it's because it's expensive it's expensive to go from even a hot hot scenario where both sites are fully operational it's expensive to cut over to that second site because you have personnel that needs to be switched out you might have to get people on flights depending on how many people are at that secondary site you have to basically switch all over your network connections through your ISP provider so it's a lot of work that has to be done in the quote quote the physical realm because we're trying not to use the word real world because in reality virtual reality and physical reality it's all real world it all can have an effect on your mind on your body on your life so having the ability virtually to kind of go back and forth and say this works this didn't is invaluable and and I just remembered that the killer point that was made and it was the TLS records were set for 48 hours or something which meant that the whole failover was going to take two days which was not feasible obviously which brings me to kind of the point of time where perhaps you can recognize that that is the reality but but then fast forward and virtually experience what the outcome of that might be two days may be okay for certain types of systems but if you if you can't fast forward to see that two days actually did re was required and that that was the impact could be a could be a positive thing so Stacy I don't know if any of your students maybe Darius as well any any specific research in the area of VR and cyber any projects obviously Daris you mentioned spunk examples in the commercial space are there any others that we can point to to say companies and and researchers are making an investment here to see what's possible you're muted sorry you think after three four years of this I'd be good at it now the world was on pause for a moment I'm also a member of the BRAR association and a whole slack channel and groups of different verticals and industries and how they're using AR and VR and what kind of research that they're doing thus far none of the students that I've worked with have selected VR as a research or capstone project in part it's it's hard to get access to so you know one of the assignments I give to the students is to reflect on a time when they experienced immersion and presence and for some they've used VR and for some they haven't and it's as much as you know a game that they played or Pokemon go or whatnot so in in terms of research at the university we're still up and coming with that ability to be able to do that they have a small VR setting in the research lab but to be able to do that magnitude of data I think there's my people to turn to this is a lot for a capstone class in a two-year program but I'm hoping as they grow and hopefully have somebody have a doctoral program in cyber psychology that that's something we'll see more research on because it is a costly topic to to research and you have to really you can't just put out a survey on it you have to do a lot more qualitative data in terms of the industries and verticals that are using it where I actually had a really interesting discussion with somebody at that HubSpot event because I said well if people are rushing to market on VR and say okay here's my virtual environment and now you can virtually go into a subway or whatever it may be are we then when it is and I've worked in marketing so I'm just going to say this with as much love as I have sometimes we rush to get the marketing hat on and we don't stop and think should we be doing that is this secure what impact is this having is it safe what is this virtual environment creating so I do know that there's a lot of discussion within the different societies about what are best practices and so that's that's just one example of an association that is you know they have meetings they talk about so some of the verticals have free energy and energy use so okay could you virtually walk into you know look to look at the grids could you use that as a VR environment could you use that in military uses what's there and in hospitality we look at also storytelling and that's where I think some of the research is coming from is that because it's not something that we're able to quantitatively do which I can say from you know my own academic research too you're really just looking to survive at that level sometimes you're like what quantitative questionnaire can I give and let's code this sucker and get it out the door I'm really hoping that we'll start to see more longitudinal data as the technology gets better so much of this really does rely on the technology it is just becoming where people can start to put on a VR headset and and not get sick I actually look at my kids who and yes I'm that mom who lets their kids use VR my daughter loves it she can spend an hour on that I spend I'm like on there but I 40 minutes and then I start to get nauseous I did it with a group of people where they did a virtual office environment actually they were trying to during COVID create virtual in the office environment so you could all get together in a meeting room but the technology wasn't there it was a great HR solution but we had they sent us the headsets we had about four of us on there and first the our CEO just tapped right out this is my last company he's like I'm feeling sick I got I didn't take the drama mean I got 20 minutes in and then he's out then I think our marketing person was out and then HR and I just add a sheer stubbornness I'm holding on and then once it was over at the end of it I'm like I need to go lay down like all right that's my limit so that that hinders the research but the the more we get and the more especially now with everything that's come up in in the past couple months with chat GPTI with what's happening where we're starting to go towards AI and this concept of removing the humanity of certain things and I want to use that carefully because that's a loaded loaded statement so I think I think that's where we're going to see the most research it once the technology starts to get there where we can really dig in and see what happens and then as these digital natives continue to grow up and do research. And Darius I'm going to turn to you because you you gave an example of looking at a server room server farm server world I don't know how extensive that that world is that view is that you provide with the Splunk capabilities but I mean it seems cool it's probably valuable information data that exists and so I want to hang on that point and kind of go back to to what Stacy was just describing in terms of technology being ready for humans to interact with I want to turn it slightly to the technology interacting with the business environment that exists and perhaps some of the challenges we might face there and the example that I that I'll use to kind of kick it off is we talk about inventory and understanding the business role of every asset in the company so we can then do a risk assessment and and and manage that risk to to the best ROI possible right what what controls return the best results to reduce exposure and manage that risk not many companies can do that today right but a lot of that same data in my opinion is required for this VR type world where what is it where is it what does it do what's the metadata what's what's the interaction with the rest of the environment so that we can then experience that in the VR world do you do you think we're in the same spot from that tech to tech perspective as we are and the way that Stacy described it from the tech to human perspective we have ways to go there still I think there are ways there we have a long ways to go it's I've seen multiple industries multiple verticals that implement technology without really doing those risk analysis going the extra mile to understand what this technology will do in my space will it help it will it hinder it is it just a bandwagon thing where I'm doing this because my competitor is doing this and I just need to show that I'm being innovative do I send VR headsets to every single new employee because that's what the new generation wants but without doing research on can a whole workday go virtual can you spend eight hours in VR which a lot of us won't be able to it's so my dissertation was on internet of things and how small and medium-sized businesses were implementing these IoT devices without any concern for security and so I see the same thing with virtuality so I think that's a big part of
With aviation, a little different. They've had virtual reality for a while. They've had flight simulators that full level four flight simulators where you get into this massive basically fuselage and it runs through a whole simulation of you being able to take off, land, you feel the movements, it turns and you are fully immersed. And I think as the technology improves where the immersion piece is improved, that will one, reduce the kind of fatigue that the body feels being in a virtual environment, but also improve the, I guess, return on investment for businesses. Because that right now, if this technology was implemented everywhere, people would be fighting it. Not just people, the human body would be fighting it. Just everything. Like it's not cohesive enough to just plug and play into any business vertical that's out there. Very specific industries can take it. Cybersecurity as an example, there's a lot of companies that are trying to make virtual like seam products or virtual desktops where security analysts can look at their events virtually without having to look at a computer. Or another example would be MacBooks. Apple has, there's technology out there where you can connect like your Oculus to a Mac and then you have your desktop shown virtually. These are technologies that need to get improved before they're really pushed out. Because if not, then people will be adverse. People won't want to implement virtual reality because they're like, oh no, I remember I got sick on that one time or this happened. And then it's just going to start hurting these industries. Yeah. So Marco did an episode with, I believe, is a photographer that does like high-end photo shoots and things like that. And evidently he's implemented this studio environment that is a combination of physical and virtual where the subject, subjects are in the physical studio at the moment anyway. And he is the photographer is in the virtual studio controlling the physical gear and guiding the physical subjects in the physical studio. Which is pretty cool. So I'm just wondering if there's a similar scenario where we might find a mix of things where there's the physical world, kind of to your point of looking at a screen that's emulating your desktop. I'm envisioning a sock analyst sitting in front of a bunch of machines and being able to kind of navigate things like that. On my mind, earlier this morning went a hundred miles further down that road. I'm just wondering what, what kind of worlds can we create physical and virtual hybrid that I think different roles can be used. Let's start with the analyst role. Sure. Yeah. From an analyst perspective, you're sitting there either in a 24 seven shop or just a day shift shop, depending on what you're doing as an analyst. And yet you're charged with watching three, four different screens at a time. So if you transfer that virtually, now I can say, okay, I have a list of events here. I can simply touch that event with my virtual finger mouse and it opened up, okay, the next series. So automation, huge thing when it comes to cybersecurity operations. So if I can simply just interact naturally with my hands to open up these events to drag and drop it into my IP finder, if I need to search where this IP exists, country, et cetera, or my threat Intel platform, because I want to pull specific threat Intel. If I can start just naturally interacting with this virtual environment, then that will reduce, one, it'll just reduce the overall fatigue on the end user. And then it'll reduce the overall fatigue. I mean, you're doing a 10 hour, 12 hour shift. So instead of, you're just sitting there clicking a button and doing this, clicking another button, doing this, typing in some notes. Now I can actually, it's kind of like gamifying it, right? I'm in a virtual game where I'm doing what they used to do in the movies where they're dragging and dropping. I can speak my voice notes and that will translate to text for me. I can have an AI program that's speaking to me and saying, Hey, you might want to look at this. And just the future can be so vast when looking at how virtuality can affect and virtual reality can affect the different industries. I mean, we've seen it in the medical field where there's remote surgeries happening, where there's somebody that's very talented that has to do brain surgery and they get the equipment necessary to do that surgery thousands of miles away. And so changing the landscape and removing the physical realm will definitely improve just the overall mechanics of these jobs. I mean, firefighting, another example, if you say, Oh, there's about to be a flash over, I can see it, the temperature's rising. Instead of relying on that experience, which is still important of the firefighter, you still reduce life's loss by saying, this is about to happen. The temperature's rising. There's a body over here based off this heat signature. Let's improve versus replace people, improve the technology around people so that they can do a better job and they're safer overall. I think, yeah, and you kind of bounced off your examples there. And I think about network security as being a really good example. If you look at how that's evolved over the years. So with notography, when a company that I look like, we talk about this atomized network and that's because it's not just network security anymore. It's now it's in the cloud or it's on-prem or it's in all of these different places. And with so many times you're basically looking from a screen to screen to screen, where's everything coming from? It's just gotten bigger and more dispersed and ephemeral and everything's changing. What if also you could see that and see that within a virtual environment? And there's other people talk about like, Oh, even just walking into a knock and seeing, Oh, it's red over there. I don't have to scan through logs and look at everything and see what's going on. If there was a way to take what is being reported on or take what you're noticing and looking at it from the cloud, from on-prem, look at packets, however it all comes together in this visualization of it. But one of the things I think also is when we take something that's data or that's something that is quantitative, the notion of VR, it is a very visual environment. That's really what we're relying on. Sure, we could get into how you can make it 4D and create smells and sounds and everything like that. But for a lot of these verticals, we have to think about how do we visualize them? What does a network look like? And how would we put that into a virtual reality that then you could put on a headset and be in? How do you immerse yourself into something if we don't maybe even know what it looks like? So it becomes a very abstract notion that we have to almost agree upon in order to say, okay, this is what doing network security looks like and what it would look like to look into my network or what it would look like to, you know, we know what it looks like to fly a plane. So, okay, that's one of the advantages of why we've been able to have that technology. But do we know what it's like to do these things? Could we even have it where it's I could put on my headset and, ooh, now I know what a day into the day looks like. And really, literally look at what it's like to go outside our own realities to another person. And to me, once we can agree on the technology and the perception, the view, the vision, it becomes limitless. And I want to take you further there, Stacey. Is it two roles within the organization that I think we as security professionals have a hard time understanding? And that's the end user and the executive staff. And I'm wondering, to your point, can you look into my world and see what it's like? I can see a role where VR says, here's your business environment, executive staff, and here's the security layer, excuse me, security layer on it in that world to show you what we did for you today. And guess what? You can pull that world up any time you like and see what's going on, right? Which business units are at risk? Which ones are warm and hot? Which ones are flying great and in compliance? And then kind of flip it to the other end of the spectrum where you have users that are not necessarily the users of the system, or where you have users that if we could show them the world that that email went to, when they said, yes, I'll reply with the credentials to transfer money on this business email compromise scam that I just received. If we can visualize that for them as well. So, are there other, I don't know if those are good or not, but are there other examples where we can kind of make those connections where it might be a little more difficult to make those connections without VR? I mean, in my mind, the ability to grow upon empathy, not just compassion, but true empathy of what it's like to be Darius for a day, or maybe if anyone wants to know what it's like to be a mom of seven-year-old twins, I'm happy to share it. But until you're in my VR world hearing mommy, mommy, mommy, do you know what that's like? And this is where now, though, we can look at the, it gets a little thorny because when you start getting into virtual reality, we have to start to look at cybercrime and a virtual world and what is somebody's personal property, whether it's their face, their likeness, or hey, is that okay? Could I virtually enter your world and see what that's like? Now, I think when you're, to bring it back, you have to go all the way to cybercrime and that whole world, that's probably a whole other conversation. But the ability to, in a business environment, and I think especially for, say, a CISO, for example, who wants to present to the board. That's one of the number one complaints of reports from CISOs now is that they're really having trouble getting bored by it and executive by it. Well, could they say, here, here's what it is that I do. Look at it. I know you may not speak the language, you may not understand the technology, but you're going to actually experience it. Could that get more buy-in? Could that get more understanding to where they can actually, they can't use the language to immerse them in the world, so then could they do it visually? And I think that they say, you know, a picture speaks a thousand words. Imagine what a VR environment could say. Darius, what about AppSec and engineering and DevSecOps? Seems like another world where we can kind of paint a picture of what this app environment looks like and works like, right? Yeah, definitely. That's AppSec, DevOps, both of those environments are critical and difficult to look at from a visual perspective if you don't know what you're looking at. So, for example, DevOps, DevSecOps even, brings security into this. So, developers, they might not know what security does. Security doesn't know what developers do. And so, you have a situation where developers bring in this application and say, hey, we're done, we have it. And then the security person's like, but there's a clear text password right there. I don't understand. And so, being able to kind of cross-support both of them by saying, okay, here's a visual representation of how I think this app should look and interact. And then security can say, okay, here's my visual representation on how it should be secured. This is my visual representation on an attacker gaining access through this port for this purpose because you don't have authentication on that. And then app developer, oh, well, I could just turn that off or, oh, I could just use certificate here. Like, well, great, do that. So, showing them, having those visuals, and that's something that's probably part of the problem is taking that text, taking those thoughts and making it visual. Because that really is going to make or break this technology. Yeah. I'm certain none of them will come from my lame ideas, but the number of business opportunities we talked about today is countless, and I'm sure 10 times that as well. So, congratulations to all the folks listening that have a confirmation of a business idea or a creation of a new one where you're making millions on VR and cyber. But in all seriousness, I mean, there's a lot of opportunity here. I think we have, sounds like we have ways to go in technology, both making it usable for people for extended periods of time, and we still have a lot of traditional challenges in cyber just from collecting the data and having access to it and from all over the place and actually making sense of it before we can actually get there from the tech perspective as well. But I think once those things start to unlock, tremendous amounts of potential here. So, that being said, it's probably hard for listeners to kind of take any points here and say, oh, I'm ready to go do this with VR in my DevOps, SecOps environment. So, instead of that, maybe some advice from the two of you for where folks might look.